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Schundler and McGreevey Praise Each Other, Faintly
Originally appeared in the New York Times on October 17, 2001
TRENTON, Oct. 16 — The second debate between the candidates for governor resolved none of New Jersey's most vexing issues, like taxes, auto insurance or gun control. But one thing seemed perfectly clear when it was over tonight: Bret D. Schundler does not think much of his Democratic opponent, James E. McGreevey.
For half an hour, the two men jousted on the radio over their mayoral records, the financing of public education, the tolls on the Garden State Parkway and whether to build a new sports arena in Newark.
Then came the ultimate softball question from a listener calling in.
"I just moved here from Illinois," said Craig from Eatontown. "What I would really like to hear is what you guys like about each other."
Mr. McGreevey, who precedes every barb with "respectfully," responded first. "That's easy," he said. "I like Bret Schundler. I think Mr. Schundler is a hard worker. I respect the passion of his views. I mean, clearly he has strong passion for his views and he brings that to the table. And again, I respect, I had the pleasure of working with him on the New Jersey Conference of Mayors. And I believe he is a decent person."
Then it was Mr. Schundler's turn. And the faint praise quickly turned damning as he seized on what some have called Mr. McGreevey's robotic campaign style. "I think Jim is very disciplined," he said. "I think he memorizes extremely well."
Mr. Schundler laughed, then added: "I think he works hard. He gets around the state. He knows exactly how he wants to say things and he says them just the way he wants to."
"Now I actually don't do all those," Mr. Schundler went on, his thoughts turning inward. "I get around the state, I think I am extremely disciplined, but I don't memorize as well, and I do typically think about policy, and try to figure out how to express it to people so they understand the way things really are out there. But that doesn't always sell as well. You know, it's not as prepackaged. What can I say?"
When Mr. Schundler's time was up, the moderator, Eric Scott, scolded him, "That doesn't sound very complimentary to me."
From there, things got ugly. Mr. Mr. McGreevey and Mr. Schundler often shouted over each other, as if in a contest to see who could speak the longest without taking a breath.
After Mr. McGreevey said that a statistic Mr. Schundler had cited was "gibberish," Mr. Schundler became dismissive of him. "Double talk," he said. "What a hypocrite," he said. Mr. McGreevey was "lying, flat- out," Mr. Schundler told the audience.
When Mr. McGreevey said he wanted to "cut government so that we live within our means and not raise taxes," Mr. Schundler retorted: "Just amazing, Jim. I mean, this guy has raised every tax he has ever seen."
Mr. McGreevey, meanwhile, repeatedly accused Mr. Schundler of lying without quite saying so. "Stick to the facts, and please be truthful," he said in one exchange.
It was a striking contrast to the beginning of the debate, on New Jersey 101.5-FM, when the two men actually talked substance and politely took their turns.
Mr. McGreevey repeatedly zeroed in on Mr. Schundler's plan to shift $585 million in state education financing from the public to private schools, to make use of what he says are thousands of empty seats in private and parochial schools, rather than build new classrooms.
"What Mr. Schundler wants to do, respectfully, is to take $600 million out of the system," he said. "And whether it's the nonpartisan Office of Legislative Services — they said it's actually going to cost the state money, because somebody has to replace that $600 million, that it's going to weaken public education, and every major think tank said it."
For his part, Mr. Schundler railed against Mr. McGreevey as a tax hiker. When Mr. McGreevey said he would not be able to remove the parkway tolls in nine months, as Mr. Schundler has promised to do, Mr. Schuldler said: "What you're basically saying there is, you're not willing to get the tolls down. I think it's ridiculous. You don't want to give a single dollar back. The reason you don't support this is because you want to keep on taking in more money. You've talked about a constitutional convention to increase sales and income taxes. You increased property taxes in Woodbridge. You voted for every Florio tax increase. You voted against the Republican tax cuts. You're never willing to give tax relief to people."
But in the the last few exchanges, Mr. McGreevey pummeled Mr. Schundler on abortion rights.
"Mr. Schundler said that he would oppose abortion even in the cases of rape and incest," Mr. McGreevey said. "Mr. Schundler said he would end all funding for health care services for women through Planned Parenthood. He said he would only support pro-life judges to the New Jersey Supreme Court."
And when Mr. Schundler finally rose to his own defense, saying he merely opposed a litmus test for judicial appointees, Mr. McGreevey could be heard over him.
"My point simply is this," he said. "That this is a woman's decision, this is a woman's choice. It's not Mr. Schundler's choice, it's not my choice. It's not the state of New Jersey's choice."
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