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 Debate in Governor's Race Turns Angry and Personal
Originally appeared in the New York Times on October 29, 2001
he two major candidates for New Jersey governor clashed bitterly yesterday over taxes, education, abortion and gun control during an angry fifth debate in which they repeatedly accused each other of lying to voters.
Bret D. Schundler, the Republican, who has been trailing in the polls, also laced two of his remarks with references to the family life of his Democratic opponent, James E. McGreevey, crossing into territory that is usually considered out of bounds in a political forum.
In the hourlong encounter, broadcast live on WNBC-TV, Mr. Schundler forcefully presented his agenda for New Jersey, promising to cut taxes and remove tolls from the Garden State Parkway, and passionately defending his plan to let parents use tax dollars for private schools. "It would cut out the bureaucracy and all the unnecessary management and administration that we don't need," he said. "It would create accountability for parents so all the educational decisions would be made in a way that best helps the child learn."
Mr. McGreevey repeated his criticism of Mr. Schundler's plan, calling it "a scheme that's untested, unproven," and that could cost public schools $600 million. Mr. McGreevey said that he would focus on improving public schools and that he would hold taxes stable by cutting wasteful spending and restructuring debt.
"I think what's key is to make sure that we have a responsible government," he said. "I believe that New Jersey does not have to raise taxes." But he also said that he did not plan to lower taxes in the near future because of a looming deficit.
For much of the hour, the exchange seemed more like a World Wrestling Federation "Smackdown" event than a policy debate, as the two men assailed each other's records and derided each other's proposals. With just over a week until Election Day, Nov. 6, Mr. Schundler in particular saw no need for niceties.
"He has not been willing to sign an agreement that he won't raise taxes," said Mr. Schundler, the former mayor of Jersey City. Then, addressing his opponent directly, he said: "If you are willing to commit yourself, then commit yourself. Otherwise, let people know that you are talking out of two sides of your mouth."
Early on, Mr. McGreevey, the mayor of Woodbridge, seemed overwhelmed by Mr. Schundler's ferocity. When the moderator, Gabe Pressman, asked if he wanted to respond to being accused of double talk, Mr. McGreevey simply mumbled, "It's just unfortunate."
But when Mr. Schundler again challenged Mr. McGreevey to "sign this pledge right now not to raise taxes" and waved a piece of paper, Mr. McGreevey fired back with an attack on Mr. Schundler's positions on abortion and gun control. "So you are not going to sign," Mr. Schundler taunted. "No," Mr. McGreevey declared. "Because I don't believe in your gimmickry. This is about real decision-making, real choice."
Mr. McGreevey accused Mr. Schundler of lying about his record as mayor and of breaking a similar pledge to Jersey City residents not to raise taxes. "When Mr. Schundler says that he didn't raise taxes, that's absolute nonsense," Mr. McGreevey said. "He raised taxes five times."
The candidates also fought bitterly over gun control, with Mr. Schundler emphatically denying Mr. McGreevey's claims that Mr. Schundler supports a law that would allow people to carry concealed weapons.
When Mr. Pressman asked about the candidates' stark differences on abortion, Mr. McGreevey briefly stated his support for a woman's right to choose an abortion. "I believe it's not a decision for the state," he said. But Mr. Schundler, defending his anti-abortion stance, decided to use Mr. McGreevey's pregnant wife to illustrate his views.
"I believe abortion is always wrong unless you are talking about saving the life of the mother," he said. "His wife is pregnant right now," Mr. Schundler continued, gesturing at Mr. McGreevey. "His baby is kicking. He can feel it. That is a human being."
At that point, Mr. McGreevey, who seemed taken aback, said, "Please."
Mr. Schundler has maintained that his views on abortion should not be an issue in the race because as governor he could not overturn the Supreme Court's decision in Roe v. Wade. And he seemed to become angry when Mr. Pressman dwelled on the issue. "Why do we even talk about that here?" he asked. "This campaign is about taxes and whether you are going to put people back to work and you are going to keep people safe. We have no impact on that."
Mr. McGreevey noted Mr. Schundler's opposition to government financing of abortion providers like Planned Parenthood. "Here's an example of how he would change the laws," Mr. McGreevey said.
Near the end of the debate, Mr. Schundler made another foray into Mr. McGreevey's personal life in response to an innocuous question about Halloween from Mr. Pressman's co-host, Larry Mendte, an anchor for WCAU-TV in Philadelphia. Both candidates have young daughters, and Mr. Mendte asked if they were going to go trick-or-treating.
"Do they celebrate in Canada?" Mr. Schundler asked, a reference to the fact that Mr. McGreevey's daughter from his first marriage lives with her mother in Vancouver and sees her father only occasionally. "Do they celebrate Halloween in Canada?" he asked again. Then he declared, "My 9-year-old will be out for Halloween in Jersey City."
There were other moments of sniping. "I reduced our property taxes; he dramatically increased his," Mr. Schundler said, launching into a attack comparing his record in Jersey City to Mr. McGreevey's in Woodbridge. "We did not increase debt. He dramatically increased his debt. And while we're taking less money from people, we got violent crime down as the F.B.I. statistics prove. Violent crime soared in his city."
Mr. McGreevey, furious to the point of sputtering, replied: "You had three murders in one of the last eight days of your administration. I had one murder in an entire year in Woodbridge Township."
To which Mr. Schundler shot back, "You're the mayor of Mayberry and you couldn't keep it safe."
Mr. McGreevey replied, "I consider Mayberry a compliment."
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